Lifting The Veil

TWWS Join Your Due Date Clubs, Share Your Info

June 19, 2013
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Becky James shares the following story with us.

I have a name to add to the list for a troll(from TWWS) that has been detrimental to a few people, including me

This is who started online bullying me on TWWS in late march and in the past has picked at peoples’ lives who have UC’d and who are mentally ill or who have gotten treatment, but she refuses to accept that they have.

Jacquelyn Buesch, jbk21(MDC), tofuscramble(TWWS), HopMama (TWWS)

In late March, I thought I was pregnant(it turned out I was, but had a false negative). I was an avid user of MDC and had no issue sharing my life with them, just as they did with me. We had become tight knit and seemed secure…. So I thought. It turns out, there were people going behind my back, mainly Jacquelyn, and going to TWWS to report any mishap in my life. But the worst bit was when I thought I was pregnant and asked them on my birth board about cervical position and cervical mucous and whatnot. She IMMEDIATELY assumed I thought I was pregnant, just because I didn’t know EXACTLY what was going on with my body and went to TWWS, and they started tearing me to shred from that point. A 30-something page thread was written mostly about me and how “sad” my life is and that I’m delusional, etc. And how someone should “help me” since my life was such a mess. Urgh!

I discovered that their “writing voice” was EXACTLY the same. Then I called tofuscramble out on being jbk21 when I was on TWWS. She and an admin IMMEDIATELY jumped on me about “no other aliases and no real names”. So I know it’s her.

I used to be Facebook friends with her. Like a year ago

On our due date club board on Mothering.com, we all shared our facebook profiles and friended each other.

There were people in the [hate] thread that are in my area (which was shocking because im in a kind of small area) and said they knew where I live and my phone number and shared it with others. Very disturbing.

I didn’t confront her on her FB. She had me blocked at the time. She blocked me because she was talking about me and if I found out, she didn’t want the drama to be pulled into the more “real” part of her life.

Thanks to Becky for being brave enough to let us publish her story and use her name. If any of you have a story you need to share, anonymously or not, don’t hesitate to contact us. We are putting a stop to these bullies, with the truth.

Jacquelyn had no problem getting close to someone in order to affect their personal life and share all their info, but put all the breaks on her own profile as soon as she was found out. She didn’t want anyone interfering with her personal life the way she had Becky’s. She can be found here: 
https://www.facebook.com/jbuesch

Please think twice before friending people you don’t know, especially from parenting forums and Due Date Clubs.

 


Anj Fabian: Exception & Expectation

May 30, 2013
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Anj is a noticeable Dr. Amy troll, participating in all the usual haunts. Anj is found on Fed up, “Banned” pages, etc. She can be fairly mild compared to some, but is still active and bothersome. Here we’ll touch on which qualities she sometimes brings to the troll group(s).

This shot shows a conversation about Dr. Amy deleting people. She “almost never” does that! Anj makes note of why he was the exception.

Yes, Myrisa. It can be tiresome to have others with different agendas never let up. Anyway, the reason why this post was interesting was that whenever these individuals rag on birth groups and pages, the common accusation is how full of censorship it is (and also, how you will never see this on an Amy blog or page). Yeah, usually if you can’t adhere to basic etiquette, but who cares about that? Just keep checking off the scorecard at Banned From Birth Pages and you too can be a cool kid. Exceptional, exceptional. The double standards are mmm… exquisite.

Here she admits that there are other ways of knowing things, other than taking courses or getting degrees. This is regarding her own knowledge on a particular topic, and how she gained it.

The hell you say! Well, clearly Anj and her topic of interest are the exceptions. (Or is it, things which make her uncomfortable are?)  Most people within her group (perhaps even she herself) would normally consider statements like the above to be totally ludicrous. It’s good to see she has an open mind, when it comes to herself, though.

Here, Anj attempts to add a troll blog to our list. Way to throw your friend under the bus. With friends like these, who needs enemies?

Anj was not happy that Jeevan was the exception here.

Anj and “Yet

Anticipation! Suspense! Anj loves the word “yet”.

“No reviews yet.” Yeah, so if you want to trash the new edition of a classic, hated based on regurgitated ideology, hint hint– now’s your chance. Amazon reviews are the only things keeping mothers and babies safe on the internet anyhow.

“I haven’t met the woman. Yet.” Because no identity stalking intimidation on the internet is complete without implied threats. Keep them guessing. Is Anj around the corner? Maybe. Nice touch.

Anj, many may mistake you for a normal troll, but we say you are full of surprises. The biggest and best surprise of all would be if you would quit using your time for trolling with hate groups. Please?


More on Trolls With Wooden Spoons

May 30, 2013
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Who needs soap operas or reality TV? With the vastness of the internet, the world is your oyster.

That’s how Trolls With Wooden Spoons feel.

Their forum was created as a frustrated off-shoot from MDC (mothering.com). Feeling overrun by the “woo” (natural parenting), they needed a place to bitch and moan. Being a mother can be so dull, after all. They needed a place where trolls could be trolls.

These women are very harsh on things they have a distaste for. It’s like a no holds barred competition of who can be the rudest, foulest, judgmental woman towards other women and mothers. Why women who hated “woo” were every interested in Mothering Magazine or mothering.com in the first place is a point oft overlooked. Some say they were “steeped in the woo” and then “detoxed” with the help of TWWS. Others simply seem to like floating to any forum as long as it fills the hours in their days. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Hey, as long as you have some place to log into on the internet where people can tell you what’s okay to think, right?

The following pictures show examples of just some of the snark coming from TWWS. Most of the snark had been and still is based off of users of the MDC forum. They had a huge thread crash back in early 2011 which cost them some of their most disgusting behavior.  Therefore, some of their most offensive antics are missing.

(These ones start with concern for someone and devolve quickly into something a little disturbing.)
twws1

twws4(Next they discuss their favorite “trainwrecks” of the MDC forum, with much joy. The same user from the previous posts is also discussed among them.)

Yep, such a snoozefest you had to remember her and discuss her in your best-of. Pathetic.

Snark and frustration in and of themselves are not crimes. Everyone has an opinion and having a place to express that with like-minded folks is understandable. What is most worrisome about TWWS are the following things.

  • People stay members of (a) forum(s) they despise merely to try to cause disruption in sub-forums, find entertainment “material” (other people’s lives) to bring back to their lair, or find things to be pissed about.
  • People inform others about when they are being discussed. They are then directly or indirectly invited to TWWS. Sometimes this is done under the guise of compassion, and with a link provided. It would be mean enough if they kept their negative thoughts only to themselves in their forum (you have to be a member and log in to read), but to then purposely try to hurt others or engage them in being shredded by a large group of mean-spirited trolls is totally different.
  • Obsession and amusement. They would sometimes have 50 page threads all dedicated to how much they hated one particular user. Their comments would be full of speculation, lies, gossip, and some of the nastiest things human beings could ever say about other human beings (especially those they’d never met). They often “break out popcorn” to enjoy disputes or entertaining lives at the expense of their victims. They will follow a person’s every move just to report back, and will try to locate them in other internet places in order to track the “adventures”. They will go on to remember this individual for years after they started in on them, having a whole timeline as one might recall a favorite television series. A lot of times their opinions and recollections are mish-mashed from several people they lump in together who must have seemed similar to them.
  • They do not extend the same courtesy to others that they would like for themselves. They don’t want people to be judgy towards them, yet they feel free to judge others. They want a forum where they can have a home to snark on natural parenting, call those forums oppressive in their attitudes and moderation, but they aren’t willing to let natural parenting folks have a safe place for forum– free of their judgments and mind games (which skillfully make it past moderation, plenty).
  • The worst: interference in personal lives. Examples? Women use internet forums looking for help with a situation. Maybe they are having money or relationship troubles. The trolls get close to them at whatever forum they find them. The women are obviously already desperate to even be posting on an internet forum asking for advice from strangers. The trolls send private messages offering to help somehow (“I’ll get you a bus ticket to come stay near me for a while, and get away from that abusive deadbeat. There’s a job waiting for you here.“, etc.). As soon as the victim gives up ANY identifying info (address, full name, kids names, significant other and friends names, personal facebook address, etc.), things take a dark turn. Women get CPS at their door. Sometimes children are removed from them, even if temporarily. Women spend the night in jail from trumped up “concerns”. Others have their small businesses tampered with. Some have had to close due to trolls successfully scaring off all their customers and ruining their reputation. Phony bad reviews are left for people. The list goes on.

The harassment goes well beyond a single forum and begins to follow the victim, whether just on the internet or in real life.

The trolls will have many aliases, sometimes even within the same forum, just to play these games. These come in handy when pretending to be different people or in case of being banned from a forum (which is almost inevitable).

You may say that people with common sense who are careful can never be truly hurt by the trolls. It is fair to say that common sense goes a long way in protection. However, if they take a personal interest in you, they sometimes go to great lengths to keep affecting your life in whatever way they can manage. Despising people also comes quite easily to them. You’re a game and they’re bored. They’re also great “concern trolls”, acting like they care about your issues, your life, your children, and this justifying their interference. When they can be heartlessly cruel in one moment and switch it to pretending to want to help in the next, and when their whole forum was based off of and continues to specialize in hate, the act falls flat.

Some members of TWWS will tell you how great they are. They have helped each other through tragedy. They have helped each other have nice holidays. They have met up in person. They have sent presents. They have braided each other’s hair. Whatever. Everyone has good in them somewhere, and if you’re fortunate enough to see their good side, great for you. Someone else out there was less lucky. Their good does not at all dismiss the very painful negative impact they are having on the world (especially when the good is so selective, and their hate so easy and merciless). You could be the pregnant mom crying at home at the shock of “meeting” them, or the businesswoman closing up shop for good, or the woman finding herself answering authorities while her children sit in a holding room. It’s all wrong and decent people don’t do that to each other. End of story.

They like to say that they aren’t really trolls. The name references something else, and they’re just an innocent forum of smart, sassy women. Right. Maybe there are better ways to feel more happy about your own unsatisfying lives than attacking other women you encounter on the internet. HTH.


Sara Savel: Troll Genealogist and Super Sleuth

May 29, 2013
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According to the anonymous trolls like Candace Rice who’ve been hounding us left and right, Sara Savel is responsible for finding out as much about The Skeptical Mother as possible. Once they had her name from another source (thought to be January Harshe, aka Birth Without Fear), Sara was able to use that info to find out even more, including legal matters, details on her husband, address information, and even the woman’s family tree.

But why would someone want or need that info? For what purposes would this be used?

We already know that Candace is correct about Sara being smart and being a bit of a genealogist. We’ve seen her discuss this before. All the pieces began to fit. It just made sense. It turned out that Candace was an actually credible witness when it came to the trolls and their roles.

The chronology of how this came to pass goes something like this. Birth Without Fear grows increasingly threatened over The Skeptical Mother’s success as a Facebook birth page. As she is about to surpass BWF’s numbers, BWF followers go to TSM’s page to pick fights. In one fight, Ruthie Davis came to claim that TSM was copying January by celebrating gay parents and essentially made it clear that this was January’s turf. She also started publicly sharing TSM’s full, private name right then and there as an act of intimidation.

Once the name was *officially* out (as in, not being exchanged between a few trolls in private messages or groups), people were more open about sleuthing. Bambi Chapman claims she then found TSM on ISOTPB’s (Elizabeth’s) Pinterest. Of course she wouldn’t know who Sammy (TSM) was from just a friends list, so she came to Pinterest already knowing the name (from January) and looking for confirmation.

Next Sara was their girl, and Candace credits her for being the smart one in the Raptors. Sara took it upon herself to locate everything she could on Sammy, and then had private message conversations in which she suggested that Sammy should, if she wanted to be left alone, publicly denounce this project. Sara implied that her word alone would not sway all the people with sharing the info (some of which she herself had helped gather). That’s right… Sara, a respected Raptor, longtime Dr. Amy fan, member of Fed up and admin at Banned From Birth Pages’ word would not be enough to influence her friends and groupmates not to share personal info of an innocent person. Think about that for a moment.

Sammy refused to denounce the project but tried to speak words of peace to Sara. Then, trolls on Fed up with natural childbirth began publicly stating TSM’s full name and location repeatedly as they bashed her. This was all in retaliation for supposedly being involved in this project, which she was not.

What Came Next?
Sara then contacted us threatening legal action if we did not fix these already innocuous sentences (from You’re Destroying Birthy Land) : “I believe it was Sara Savel who told her she should publicly denounce us if she wanted to be left alone. I guess her word and our word weren’t good enough when we privately and publicly (respectively) clarified. You [Candace; the group] demanded public defamation by her [Sammy, TSM]. When you didn’t get what you were after, you tried to inflict harm. Sounds a little like terrorism, blackmail, extortion.”

In an effort to be accommodating, we then changed it to read: I believe it was Sara Savel who suggested she should publicly denounce us if she wanted to be left alone. [Remember, Sara is the same one who reportedly used her genealogical research skills to find everything she could on The Skeptical Mother’s personal life, including addresses and family trees.] I guess her word and our word weren’t good enough when we privately and publicly (respectively) clarified. You demanded public defamation by her. When you didn’t get what you were after, you tried to inflict harm. Sounds similar to terrorism, blackmail, extortion. Similar.

You want to take it to the law, Sara, spending your money and/or time over this paragraph? Here are the facts.

1. You enjoy genealogy.
2. You used skills you acquired in genealogy to gather information on an enemy– a woman your group had been bashing and hounding for years now.
3. Yourself and a group of women on the internet who take part in various bash sites were now all privy to the woman’s name and personal details.
4. You, by your own admission, stated that you asked TSM to denounce this project.
5. You then suggested to her that your belief in her innocence was insufficient to convince the group of women you associate with not to use the gathered info to retaliate against her.
6. Said group did publicly and privately use this info to retaliate against her, when she failed to comply with your suggestion.
7. You deemed this a “moral failure” on her part, showing that you had placed a judgment on her choice– the implication being the results are hers, and just.
8. You continue to associate with said group and said activities.
9. We have screenshots proving all these activities and continue to gather more.

Sara, I would ask this of you and all of your associates in the various birth-hate groups you participate in over the internet:  are you prepared to commit perjury in a court of law?

Or, you could just let us continue to tell our sides of the story. It’s up to you.

Despite the obvious issues here with corruption and deceit, we don’t hate Sara. We hate what Sara does. Any other day and topic, maybe she would be a reasonable human being and a good friend. It’s getting swept up in internet birth wars and attempting to control environments and people that totally warps a person into something they’re not. Factor into that a history containing birth trauma, child loss, and forms of depression, and sometimes people get a little off balance. We have no doubt like many have suggested that Sara is smart. Maybe even the smartest Raptor. It doesn’t change what is right and what is wrong.

Sara, the time to stop pushing people you didn’t even have to know… is now.

Just let people be and leave us alone. Do us all a favor and unknow us. Stay off natural parenting and birth forums if it’s so upsetting to you and inspires so much hate in you. Focus on the things which matter most, such as love, and your family. If you want to pursue certain forms of legislation or better health care for women, let that path guide you instead.  We wish you peace.

For a little more on Sara’s background and what brings her to the Birth Troll groups online, this may explain it.


Trolls Make Organized Efforts to Stomp Out “Woo”

May 29, 2013
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Whenever something comes out in the birth or parenting world that is critical of medical mainstream practices, the trolls get together and attempt to squash it with brute force.

This time, they have taken on a book. They’ve done this before, but this time it’s The Business of Baby. The Business of Baby is receiving lots of attention in the natural parenting world. As such, Dr. Amy and her accomplices want to tear it apart. We can assume with confidence that none of them have read the book, but despise its intention. This is when they go to Amazon and leave phony book reviews for book subjects which they already and only find contentious.

The following post shows Alexis Coxon, Florence Brun Tirakayos, and Dr. Amy Tuteur leaving their reviews.

When this group of women decides they are against something, they rally all their troops. Then, when the person they’ve targeted asks for aid themselves (from a Facebook page), they get reamed in the reviews for doing that. Funny how these hate groups are allowed to stampede on Facebook to get results, but the author is not allowed to follow suit in her own defense. You will see plenty of other down-rated reviews that make a point to mention this, as if it was morally unacceptable for the author. They come off as tacky instead of making the author look tacky. Not to mention it is blatantly unfair and bully behavior.

Luckily author Jennifer Margulis has a major publisher and lots of good publicity. Her negative reviews hardly put a dent in the positive, due to prominent exposure. Independent authors (and others, such as small business owners) may find they are less fortunate.

If you are perusing natural childbirth or parenting books on Amazon and you happen to see lots of scathing reviews, take it with a grain of salt. They could be coming from internet trolls.

As alluded above, this type of prejudice doesn’t stop with books. Amazon makes it more obvious since they have open reviews (with the exclusivity and class of a highway restroom), but we have heard accounts of women being forced to close their small businesses due to troll interference.  If they decide they don’t like you or your beliefs, they don’t adhere to a live and let live policy. They do not leave people alone. They want to destroy you. Their only point of view is shame on you for writing this book, shame on you for responding to misleading critiques, and unless you agree with me, shame on you for existing. That’s why these are hate groups.

This is why we think you should know their names and backgrounds.


Dear Veil: You’re Destroying Birthy Land

May 19, 2013
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Welcome to  “Dear Veil”! This is where we answer your letters.

“Cindy Jones” writes:

it sad what you are doing. honestly it is nutty sweetie. many of them won’t admit it because of pride but you are hurting them and u don’t have proof. u don’t even know what some of them are going through right now. you are the most destructive person in all of birthy land right now

Hi, Candace Rice.

First, none of us are your “sweeties”.

Second, hurting people is not our aim. If they are too proud to admit it, that problem is their own. They could try leveling with us. If they don’t want to, it’s understandable- they have hurt so, so many people themselves being part of these troll groups that letting their guard down might not be well received. That’s because there is a level of shame here. Should you be ashamed of being outed for being part of internet cliques that torment people? Probably.

Proof. See screen caps.

I am truly sorry that anyone is going through anything right now. I hope that as you all struggle with your personal pains you stop and think for a moment how any time you dealt harshly with other women online (tampering with their personal lives, or mocking them nonstop, etc.), maybe they were put through a lot of hardship too. I’m sure there is a lot of unnecessary pain that you will never know about, either from denial or from ignorance. If you want it to end, all you have to do is turn over a new leaf and disassociate with all the creeps who go around bashing people for their births.

The most destructive in all of birthy land, you say. If Birthy Land were a kingdom, it would already be wrecked by chaos and war and corruption. We’re messengers in that land telling the people the news. This is only destructive to you if it ruins your game. If you were standing in the light and doing right, you wouldn’t have anything to complain about here.

If you keep playing the victims without acknowledging how much your plotting and scheming over the years have deeply impacted birth communities online- real women and babies- you haven’t earned sympathy for being publicly outed over it. Everything is not all about you. Think of the pain you’ve caused others and not just yourself. Show some remorse.

sara savel is smart like a whip but she would have never shared skeptical mothers information publicly. never.

No, she just spent time researching every available detail about her personal and family life that she could, for no purpose at all, only to lock it away in a vault and keep it a secret forever.

and alexis is a educated lady, she doesnt troll or set outs to hurt others.

Which is why she’s a member of troll groups which keep tabs on groups that live their lives differently. For no purpose, really. Certainly not to jab at or interfere with.

your main beef seems to be with bambi. why not talk right to her?

We’ve tried. She was closed off. She is welcome to talk to us, though. We are very big on trying to talk to people before talking about them or judging them. We wish your group behaved the same.

what has heidi really ever done to you? bwf? liz? many many of these peoples what have they done to u or even anyone?

We have numerous screen caps and posts explaining all of this. If you choose not to look, address, or read, that is your own willful ignorance and denial.

or if she [The Skeptical Mother] would have said somewhere public that she had not a thing to do with your LTV blog [she would not have been targeted].

I’m sorry, I don’t think she or we realized we had to follow instructions of people harassing us. I believe it was Sara Savel who suggested she should publicly denounce us if she wanted to be left alone. [Remember, Sara is the same one who reportedly used her genealogical research skills to find everything she could on The Skeptical Mother’s personal life, including addresses and family trees.] I guess her word and our word weren’t good enough when we privately and publicly (respectively) clarified. You demanded public defamation by her. When you didn’t get what you were after, you tried to inflict harm. Sounds similar to terrorism, blackmail, extortion. Similar.

all this eye for eye is wrong. when it end?

Since when is justice “eye for eye”? We’re just telling the truth about what is happening to us. If you had stuck to birth issues and only trying to make mothers and babies safe, there would be no problem. When you use that to troll after people, then we’ve got big problems. “It end” when everyone stops being abusive. You’ve been abusive to innocent people who did not know you and you expect no consequences. This is foolish. You’ve expressed yourselves when you’ve gone after others (“free speech”, “the internet is public”), and we have the right to express our feelings in return.

But as Sara Rose says, it’s not about “feeweeings”. She said she is not going to coddle anyone, and while we have a little more compassion than that, it’s not our job to coddle internet bullies who are sad for being told on.

feewing

Then, Sanctimommy declares that it’s an all-out war. “They declared war on us,” they proclaim. Who is they? Anyone they think is sanctimonious. Who is sanctimonious? Anyone with a strong parenting opinion that they don’t like.  “Fight back” and “laugh at them“, they instruct. Only problem is, a lot of these are just innocent women in internet mommy groups who do things differently than the trolls. It wasn’t the sister-in-law who made you feel inadequate for bottle feeding, or the former friend who talked crap about your cesarean section. You are laughing at people who have nothing to do with your “feeweeings” of inadequacy.
sanctI do agree with the last two sentences. For the most part every woman is making the best choices she can for her family and no one needs anyone’s approval (especially not from trolls). Lashing out at strangers is not the answer. You’re not even getting back at the right people. You’re just hating people based on prejudice, which is why we say the trolls take part in hate groups.

Ironically, troll Isabelle puts the concerns of “Cindy”, Sanctimommy, and any other griping trolls into perspective.

waahSomeone must have been mean to her, too, since she joins pages like Banned by the Feminist Breeder.

So, back to “Cindy”, you were saying, about Birthy Land?


“Candace Rice”: Trolls Behaving Like Trolls

May 17, 2013
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Shortly after our project became public, several people started receiving threats and intimidation. One example is “Candace Rice”, who was created for the purpose of harassment relating to our page and blog. Here are some private messages she sent to ISOTPB (who is part of our project) to try to encourage her silence.

CLICK IMAGES FOR BETTER VIEW.

In this first shot, Elizabeth believes she is talking to Liz. This was based upon her tone (unable to take blame for anything, dishes out blame, obtuse, oblivious to double standard) and typing (all lowercase).

This is a shot from the list Candace and ISOTPB were referencing.

One of the more recent examples of how this behavior continues: Alexis Coxon created a Subscription list on Facebook with a vague “Birth” title, and it is followed by mostly trolls. This allows them to keep track of fresh material for fodder and who to attack without having to actually “like” a page.

The conversation continues: Candace threatens that they will reveal Sammy’s (The Skeptical Mother’s) identity and that they found out everything about her, all because she is a friend of ISO. It had already been expressed clearly and publicly numerous times that Sammy had no involvement in our project. Then Candace continues with more threats, including for a counter-blog.

A counter blog/page was in fact created, and this is the point where speculation could turn to Heidi; the rival page used the phrase “Birthshit” in reference to ISOTPB. This was something previously only observed specific to Heidi. The page also took the specific tone of “why can’t ISO leave innocent Heidi and BWF alone?”, which also supports Heidi’s usual tone and agenda (the two of them in big business, together). “Candace” then used that FB page all over FB, including troll pages, to draw attention. Just like Heidi’s previous alias “Kallie Bloom”, they get sick of her antics pretty quickly, but her behavior proves incessant. This would also be typical of Heidi’s personality, perhaps to a better hidden extent when using her real name. Update: We then thought Candace was actually Florence, just copying Heidi’s insults. Now we think it was a different Heidi copycat.

Next shot: “Opinion” vs. “Fact”. Either we’re all allowed to express ourselves and talk about other people, or we’re not. Which is it?

Candace did go on to share Sammy’s photo and identity publicly after this, through her page. Out of spite. Notice how additionally, the Barberton area of Ohio points to the identity being Bambi again.

Below, ISOTPB urges Candace to stick to real help for women and babies and to stop taking part in “mommy wars” on the internet. I love how Candace admits that “there are some twatty trolls”. She goes on the name the “best raptors”. She then details who found out Sammy’s information and who shared it. All signs still point to Bambi, here.

UPDATE: the Barberton clue came from a comment left during these conversations which used some of the exact same phrasings ISOTPB and Candace did, making us think the person was the same harasser. That person was traced to Barberton. We then believed Candace was likely Florence. See why we’ve reconsidered.

(The “April” alias they are discussing was telling The Feminist Breeder to kill herself.)

We need to pause here and mention that another reason this suggests Bambi is the true identity of Candace is this:  Bambi could not simply have “found out” who Sammy was in the 2 minutes she claims merely by looking at Elizabeth (ISOTPB)’s Pinterest. Elizabeth had a bunch of friends on there and any number of them could have hypothetically been Sammy. Bambi would love to take credit for this, and in fact she bragged about this because we here at LTV claimed she was not so bright. This was by Bambi’s own admission on Fed Up. Taking credit for something like this serves her own interests. She and Candace both wanted to prove us wrong, that she is “a smart cookier”.

Even though this is not possible, she would have been able to verify Sammy’s identity if someone else named her first. Once named, Bambi could look on Pinterest and notice that Elizabeth and Sammy were indeed friends. The name would still have to be spilled first. The only people we think were capable of doing this would have been BWF’s January Harshe or Ruthie Davis, or possibly Heidi Faith. Signs point strongly to the first two. Please do searches for these individuals on our blog for more details on this.

Below:  Sara Savel, resident genealogist, used her research skills for unscrupulous means. Uses of “dude” and “babe” hint at Bambi again. Candace does not deny it when she is called Bambi (or Liz, far above, for that matter).

Candace does not come clean and lets each one of Elizabeth’s suspects passively take the blame.

The convo closes, but with a warning. We have personal info too. We hope there is no need to use any of it, and we have no plans to use it, but it is there. We want what we’ve always ever wanted: for Trolls to stop pushing us against the wall.


Bambi Acts Rashly, Shows Untrustworthiness (+ BWF)

March 14, 2013
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Threats and blackmail have been attempted with regards to this list. One person in particular guilty of this is Bambi Chapman. Bambi is known for being involved with almost every troll group named on this site. She also has an award named after her at Stillbirthday.

Harassing “Sammy” of The Skeptical Mother seemed the easy choice. They were convinced she was involved, and they knew she was vulnerable because she wanted to keep her personal life private. There’s only one problem with that:  The Skeptical Mother is not a participant in this project.

Bambi admits to outing her and her reasons why. (click images for best views)


We already knew Bambi was not good at keeping things secret. This happened on Banned From Birth Pages. The discussion is about Bambi telling everything going on in the secret group Unity & Healing while it was in session. (Search Unity & Healing on this site, for more info). In these following images, Banned implicates Bambi in breaching everyone’s trust.

secretgroup3 secretgroup secretgroup2

Even other trolls have decided to speak out against Bambi. See Tara’s comment.

Here Bambi (and Liz) participate on a troll forum (dated a couple years back). She takes about how much she hates people, and her love for snark.

bambiliz
You may notice a reference to her being suspected of playing other personas. While that evidence is beyond our current reach and dated and we have no concrete proof, we were able to compare IP’s and find that Bambi has been leaving anonymous hateful, irrational comments on blogs she dislikes.

This means we also have info on where Bambi lives.
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Here is our personal plea to Bambi:  you are on this list because you have been your own worst enemy. We have observed this erratic behavior in you for years. You lash out at people who are innocent to you, often who have nothing to do with your life or your pain.

We also find it funny that you’ve publicized all this stuff about other people, such as your midwife. No one has any way to know if all the stuff you’ve said about her is true, yet you’ve made it your job to publicly defame her and no one has stood in your way.

Yet, when people have public comments about you and how you’ve hurt them, you get even.

What would happen if your midwife got even (you’d think that was unfair, right? even outrageous)? We also know of other false defamatory posts you’ve done, like the one about ISOTPB where you accuse her of killing a baby which she had nothing to do with. What would happen if everyone who ever talked negatively in public about anyone was harmed in retaliation? When do people have the right to speak out against people they feel have wronged others? Is it when it works for Bambi Chapman only?

Who can take you seriously, how can you be trusted, and how can anyone think you are ever acting out of anything but blinded vengeance and rage?

We are not as rash as you. We will not publish the private details of your life just on a whim, even though we know fully that you are 110% guilty of trolling and harming innocent people. We want to make sure that if we do it, it’s the right thing to do. Convince us that it is not. After all, we’re trying very hard to not be about vengeance and to only be about justice and doing the right thing. That’s something you should think about.

It’s too late for Sammy. You’ve already hurt her for no reason. Maybe the final decision of what we share should be hers? Maybe Sammy has a case against you for stalking and harassment. Because you have attempted to intimidate her and put her family at risk, maybe she would feel forced to pursue criminal justice. How far will this go? What will it take for your victims to protect themselves from you?

If you keep this behavior up, it was only a matter of time before someone called you out. You had several years going unchallenged, which is a pretty long run, but now it’s time to pay the piper. You are unhealthy and unstable and you are harming anyone that you can. Stop yourself first from inflicting more damage on others and targeting strangers online with your hate.  Then other people won’t feel the need to stop you and speak against you as a warning for others. Please, stop all your negative online activities and habits and get some serious and real help.

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Addendum: How we know Birth Without Fear (January) was involved.

Obviously Bambi could not have figured it out on her own, as her claim brags. There was nothing on Sammy’s Pinterest that would tie her in any way to The Skeptical Mother. It’s possible that Bambi was the one who revealed Sammy’s name to all the trolls, but she would have had to have known the name or at least the initials beforehand for that to work (and Pinterest would only seem to confirm this for her, after the fact; a lame excuse and scapegoat). It only makes sense that that person doing the telling would be January (who knew TSM’s identity).

Since January had already told Ruthie (who was publicly saying the initials to harass and intimidate TSM), and January is also friends with trolls Liz and Bambi, it would be easy to see that January BWF is the origin point of all of this info. This was all probably discussed in private messaging at first, amongst themselves.

The way this was supposed to work benefited both January and Bambi. January gets to sit back and watch Bambi take all the credit for the dirty work, and not sully Birth Without Fear in the process. From Bambi’s perspective, in taking the credit she gets to prove she’s not the simpleton this list described her as. As you can see, that didn’t work out so well.

Lesson: January will do anything to further her own status, including releasing personal info that could be dangerous into the hands of people she knows are proven tormentors. She is not concerned for the safety of other families nor does she respect their well-reasoned anonymity.


When Hero Worship Goes Wrong

March 7, 2013
1 Comment

You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink.

You can tell a Dr. Amy fan that she’s prejudiced, but they’ll excuse her as still bringing the “facts”.

You can tell an Amy fan that she (and her fan base) go after innocent women they’ve never met who’ve just lost their babies, and they claim that it’s for the purpose of saving lives (not the enjoyment of crushing people).

You can tell an Amy fan that Amy isn’t even respected amongst other skeptics and peers, hasn’t practiced in decades, and that she may have simply been asked not to return to work. They will tell you that’s preposterous and that Amy is just as reliable for medical advice as any other qualified in-practice birth pro.

You can point out to an Amy fan all the good doctor’s errors and fallacies, which happen fairly often. They will usually not respond and continue to repeat later how she provides the real science. Not only does she, but as if she were the only one (even forsaking other doctors).

And yet, what do they really know about Amy?  (click image for better view)

This happened on Fed Up. A fan brought this up and they didn’t even know their beloved Amy when they saw her. Yet, the rest of us already knew this… Why is that?

Have they researched her? Have they tried to determine her credibility? Are they so in love with her snarky tone and exclusive message that they will ignore every piece of info that comes their way and makes Amy questionable?

Just like researching the birth and parenting methods they mock, it’s too inconvenient to even ponder. Better to just be lazy, bitchy, and static.

If we know your idol better than you, maybe it’s time you actually reconsidered how you feel about her and her info.


“Loss Mother” Hysteria & Emotional Manipulation

February 8, 2013
1 Comment

Hi, this post today is from Elizabeth, In Search of the Perfect Birth. I’m going to tell you about how the Dr. Amy “Fed Up” troll clique always attempts to take ownership of the term “loss mother” and uses this and the concept of child death as a means to emotionally manipulate.

The reason this particular point is important to discuss is because you may occasionally be fooled into thinking these individuals are reasonable and that, despite your differences, civility can be had. However, this all goes completely out the window the moment the subject of loss comes up. Not only do they think they have ownership over the status of being loss mothers, they think they are the spokespeople for all loss mothers, and use it as an excuse to behave in all manner of perverse ways all over the internet. Their irrationality towards their identification with death and their demand that everyone put their own lives and needs aside out of respect and sensitivity for them (above all and everyone else) sends them into a frenzied state where they will not listen to reason. Incapable of comprehending the other comments, they will skim and misconstrue the feelings of others, and then lash out with all levels of vicious attacks to paint the other person as nothing short of a monster. Only the people who truly read and pay attention to what is said will understand what the hell is going on here. In a minute I’ll take you through some pics and we’ll show you what we mean.

First, some background. Not long ago Dr. Amy did a blog post that was nothing but pictures of babies who had died, where she insists that– here are the horrific results that “we” all want to cover up from homebirth. A page called Banned From Birth Pages posted it and others commented that people like The Skeptical Mother never share these things. It started a long conversation where Sammy attempted to explain that stories can be shared, links can be shared, trigger warnings can be added– but that simply a post with nothing but dead babies was not something most of her readers wanted to see. This caused much outrage, but even our friend Michelle (a loss mom herself) defended Sammy, because she knew that sensitivity to women during pregnancy for possible triggers is paramount. No one was talking about ignoring loss or these babies, or sweeping them under the rug. All anyone was ever advocating is being cautious and careful, using our discretion for each case. We run birth pages where women primarily want information and positive influence.  We know our audiences and we know our messages, and our only concern should be addressing those to our best ability. This group, however, feels that catering to their wants is the only way to be sensitive to “loss mothers”. (I keep putting it in quotes because, again, they think they are the spokespeople and ultimate judges for how other people need to behave around others.)

skepHere you can actually see Sammy ask the question. One of the commenters, outlined in red, is a member of the fed up group. Notice how she mentions that “dead” is a very honest word. Note that she says parents have a right to share (none of us disagree with this). She seems to say that sharing somewhere else is appropriate, but it isn’t clear. A commenter right below her is typical of many of the comments, which expressed that sharing painful photos with no other explanation or warning would be insensitive.

Directly next to that, note an example of Sammy sharing a loss story link, with warning. We all agree that this is appropriate and sensitive, and up to our discretion. Sammy and I have both done this in the past, and in fact, many birth pages do this. We are regularly accused, however, of not.

Here are some more samples of comments on that thread, just to get a feel for Sammy’s audience (who represent a good sampling of the general public), and their tastes and needs.

reactionsThe reactions on the left are some of the first comments on the thread. The reactions are typical of the majority of the thread. Please note how no one advocates hiding loss stories; most would just prefer warnings.

Also, seeing dead babies is not teaching something to pregnant people that they “need to see”. Every mother’s (pregnant or not) worst fear is losing a child. Pregnant people planning a positive and healthy birth don’t need help imagining the worst. It is something in the back of the mind of every mother. These women aren’t “not facing reality”, they are making a conscious choice to try to stay positive, for the sake of themselves and their baby.

The women on the right column are specifically loss mothers who said themselves how difficult it could be– even for them– to view a dead child.

There were also plenty of comments calling for the sensitivity for the mothers who had lost children, that we all think of how they must feel, that we were selfish to hold our healthy babies and not be willing to look at the “angel babies”. These were in the minority, however, and a lot of them were from the trolls themselves.

“Dead Babies”
Now a word on “dead babies”. Above, it was described by a “troll” as “honest”. It is honest. The reason such a seemingly insensitive term is being used is because there is a difference between a “baby who has passed”, or “babies who have died” and “dead babies”. Not only are the euphemisms more lengthy, but in this discussion they are deceptive. It would be one thing to see a picture of a baby who later died, and another thing to see a picture of an actual dead baby. If we can’t speak frankly about what these photos are, then you have no right to dictate who should be made to see them. In other words, you want strangers to look this issue in the eye when you yourself are not willing to. And a reminder that we ALL agree that loss stories can and should be shared. The argument was about how.

Any other day, any other conversation, most of us would not use the words “dead babies” so loosely. To not beat around the bush and for the sake of honesty, clarity, and simplicity in this already complex topic, it was the easiest way to communicate.

To a loss mother, their “dead baby” photograph(s) could feel like all they have to celebrate the life of their child. No one challenges that this would be a treasured personal item. We all agree with that and no one begrudges anyone that. However, to think that the whole world sees what you see when they look at your child is incorrect thinking. You can wish the whole world would see your precious angel, instead of a tragedy, or a grim reminder of death, but it isn’t so. For a pregnant woman doing everything she can to not let this happen to her, she deserves the right to decide if this is the kind of thing she could easily cope with seeing. Again, let’s be honest. Any picture of a corpse at any age, no matter how beloved to you they were, is disturbing to most people. That may sound harsh, but this is the reality of how human beings react, and it’s not any more disgusting or wrong than you cherishing your pictures of your babies. Like one commenter had said above, you might just have to be in that situation yourself to truly appreciate it the same way.

The term was both criticized and praised by trolls. Here are some clips. This is just a montage, with some commentary. This took place on the train wreck of hysteria, Banned from Birth Pages.

deadbabies2Then I came in and had this to say. Everything I said on the thread was pretty blunt, and nothing I said was about ALL loss mothers or how I would treat ALL loss mothers. This particular group of women and their behavior is entirely why my comments were in this tone. My attitude is entirely towards them for their manipulation and selfishness toward fellow human beings.

myintrodeadbabies3They demanded I stop using the phrase and “show respect”, even though most people from both sides of the argument had been using the phrase the whole time. This is one way in which they choose to manipulate. If they are bothered by your POV, they will attack one aspect of what you say, preferably if they can make themselves appear morally superior. Then they all gang up on and join in on the attack. Logic has already disappeared– it is about being dominant, now.

deadbabies4This person insists I should lose a child of my own, because then I would know how it feels. 4 Likers are Marlo Williams, Tanya Rene Curran, Monica Barnes and Maria Miller.
needloss
This next photo was Michelle’s response. It shows likers that were not visible in the previous photo, because apparently they retracted their likes.

needloss2Yet, when it comes to “dead babies”, troll Kim Marie had this to say. It’s a good summation on this subtopic.
deadbabiesAnd of course, Tara (the one who hated “dead babies” and told me to shut up), and BFBP, both came in and “liked” the comment.

One thing you should know about this group:  offensive is in the eyes of the beholder. If they want to be offended by you, they will. If one of their own says it, they are more than willing to overlook or even agree. It’s hypocrisy and mob mentality at its finest.

Aftermath

When getting into any dispute with these women, there is almost always some aftermath and backlash. Even after I had left (because they were beginning to put words in my mouth and construe things any way they chose), they made new posts just to keep digging into me. Here is some of what that contained, and why it mattered.
lies
You can see that the truth doesn’t get in the way of good gossip.
Please note how noble the Raptors always claim to be when confronted (contrary to the activity here), and please note how members of and supporters of Stillbirthday were involved.

The lies don’t end there. Watch Bambi and Heidi get into denial mode over their notorious mistreatment of Michelle.

bambiliesWe knew that apology was never sincere (search: Unity & Healing). And these people are supposed to mentor loss moms?

Banned from Birth Pages in the past HAS admitted that they saw Bambi attack Michelle, and when I called her a pathological liar, they agreed. This is a swift turn around from this kind of behavior:

crazy

No, I called Bambi crazy. But just like usual, they spin it to try to make their enemy look like a horrible person. These ladies are no longer friends and now Lindsay is probably inclined to agree with me about Bambi. So, just know that there ARE witnesses and you can’t always believe what these individuals claim. They will twist anything to suit their purpose in the moment. Hysteria, mob, manipulation.

lies2Here they are bitching about how horrible I am, seemingly forgetting that I was not the only person to say “dead babies”, and most of them totally unaware that my comment was directly in response to Monica, who specifically stated that seeing live babies had been disturbing to her.

manipulation
Unfortunately, with this group, there is never such a thing as Compromise. Just when things begin to look civil, emotional manipulation and lies rear their ugly heads. Because they want you to know– THEIR feelings matter more than yours. Their experience trumps yours. Their pain is more powerful than yours.
mary
And you are to shut up and respect them, whatever they say or do, or you hate loss mothers everywhere. Even if you are one.


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    Content not accompanied/supported by evidence is anecdotal and provided by participants and donor submission. Everything herein is factual to the best of our knowledge; however, individual discretion is urged and advised.

    The opinions expressed here through observation and experience are protected by free speech.