Lifting The Veil
Online Bullying Club for Mothers: TWWS
Leave a Comment
“We aren’t really trolls!”
Trolls With Wooden Spoons is a forum that is more or less a club for women to get together on the internet and bond over judging other women and mothers. It’s not just that, it’s so much more. It’s a place to plot and scheme. Small plots involve just deeply hurting feelings of people they’ve been quietly watching, or on nice days ripping their lives to shreds for entertainment without inviting them to witness it. Bigger plots involve stepping into the personal lives of their targets in various menacing ways.
Some people are only familiar with either this group, or the Dr. Amy trolls. Not everyone is familiar with both. The line blurs sometimes, however, and sometimes the same members are found in each. At the end of the day a troll is still a troll. Even if each group thinks they are special or different from the other, their behaviors and reputations are pretty much the same.
You’ve heard the common refrain– “disagreeing is not trolling!” Of course not, but that’s not why you’re trolls. From Fed Up with Natural Childbirth, the snark site Trolls With Wooden Spoons is brought up.
^ Also, Trolls are smart even though there are homebirthers there, and others (including Stacey Westover Martin) say that they are part of that forum, too.
It’s kind of interesting, since there have been problems between these groups of trolls before. (See: Trolls Collide). It even gets referenced over here, at Mama Tao (run by Dr. Amy trolls). It’s worth noting that chronologically, this image \/ actually takes place before the one just above.
Likewise, TWWS often complains that Dr. Amy and her trolls are far more cruel and closed-minded than they could ever be. Neither one seems to realize just how similar they are to the other. They are all in total denial of their level of malice.
The next couple of pics below show ongoing snark on one particular woman they found on a parenting forum. The woman has had an unassisted birth. They pool resources and try to sleuth how to interfere with her life, including future births.
How do people come to be trolls? Sometimes they start off as women who’ve been targeted and come to look up to the bullies. Here’s troll Zilch’s introduction.
Zilch (aka Charlotte Cohen) would go on to be a very involved troll, doing activities such as using Facebook to message the friends and relatives of people she was targeting, as a “warning” to them. Some people so admire abusers, they want to copy that “strength” and become abusive themselves. She won’t tell you who she was when she was being mocked, but she assures she can troll with the best of them.
“I don’t appreciate being called a troll!” we often hear. Tell us one more time, please, how you are not trolls.
Trolls of any kind really just crave a sense of belonging, and in their warped minds this is best done when getting together with others to tear other people down. Needing a group that feels supportive is something we all feel from time to time. If your group is dedicated to tormenting strangers and you call that fun, you’re a troll and a bully. You’re wrecking real lives. You don’t even really know the people you choose to harm. You earned your title. Your group isn’t actually helping you, it’s enabling your sick behavior. Get help.
Tags: Amy Tuteur, charlotte cohen, christina maxwell, claire louise lloyd, Dr. Amy, emilie hudson, fed up with natural childbirth, graceo, jane rowe, julie boxsell, junebug, liz paparella, mama tao, stacey westover martin, trolls with wooden spoons, twws, zilch
Anj Fabian: Exception & Expectation
Leave a Comment
Anj is a noticeable Dr. Amy troll, participating in all the usual haunts. Anj is found on Fed up, “Banned” pages, etc. She can be fairly mild compared to some, but is still active and bothersome. Here we’ll touch on which qualities she sometimes brings to the troll group(s).
This shot shows a conversation about Dr. Amy deleting people. She “almost never” does that! Anj makes note of why he was the exception.
Yes, Myrisa. It can be tiresome to have others with different agendas never let up. Anyway, the reason why this post was interesting was that whenever these individuals rag on birth groups and pages, the common accusation is how full of censorship it is (and also, how you will never see this on an Amy blog or page). Yeah, usually if you can’t adhere to basic etiquette, but who cares about that? Just keep checking off the scorecard at Banned From Birth Pages and you too can be a cool kid. Exceptional, exceptional. The double standards are mmm… exquisite.
Here she admits that there are other ways of knowing things, other than taking courses or getting degrees. This is regarding her own knowledge on a particular topic, and how she gained it.
The hell you say! Well, clearly Anj and her topic of interest are the exceptions. (Or is it, things which make her uncomfortable are?) Most people within her group (perhaps even she herself) would normally consider statements like the above to be totally ludicrous. It’s good to see she has an open mind, when it comes to herself, though.
Here, Anj attempts to add a troll blog to our list. Way to throw your friend under the bus. With friends like these, who needs enemies?
Anj was not happy that Jeevan was the exception here.
Anj and “Yet“
Anticipation! Suspense! Anj loves the word “yet”.
“No reviews yet.” Yeah, so if you want to trash the new edition of a classic, hated based on regurgitated ideology, hint hint– now’s your chance. Amazon reviews are the only things keeping mothers and babies safe on the internet anyhow.
“I haven’t met the woman. Yet.” Because no identity stalking intimidation on the internet is complete without implied threats. Keep them guessing. Is Anj around the corner? Maybe. Nice touch.
Anj, many may mistake you for a normal troll, but we say you are full of surprises. The biggest and best surprise of all would be if you would quit using your time for trolling with hate groups. Please?
More on Trolls With Wooden Spoons
1 Comment
Who needs soap operas or reality TV? With the vastness of the internet, the world is your oyster.
That’s how Trolls With Wooden Spoons feel.
Their forum was created as a frustrated off-shoot from MDC (mothering.com). Feeling overrun by the “woo” (natural parenting), they needed a place to bitch and moan. Being a mother can be so dull, after all. They needed a place where trolls could be trolls.
These women are very harsh on things they have a distaste for. It’s like a no holds barred competition of who can be the rudest, foulest, judgmental woman towards other women and mothers. Why women who hated “woo” were every interested in Mothering Magazine or mothering.com in the first place is a point oft overlooked. Some say they were “steeped in the woo” and then “detoxed” with the help of TWWS. Others simply seem to like floating to any forum as long as it fills the hours in their days. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
Hey, as long as you have some place to log into on the internet where people can tell you what’s okay to think, right?
The following pictures show examples of just some of the snark coming from TWWS. Most of the snark had been and still is based off of users of the MDC forum. They had a huge thread crash back in early 2011 which cost them some of their most disgusting behavior. Therefore, some of their most offensive antics are missing.
(These ones start with concern for someone and devolve quickly into something a little disturbing.)
(Next they discuss their favorite “trainwrecks” of the MDC forum, with much joy. The same user from the previous posts is also discussed among them.)
Yep, such a snoozefest you had to remember her and discuss her in your best-of. Pathetic.
Snark and frustration in and of themselves are not crimes. Everyone has an opinion and having a place to express that with like-minded folks is understandable. What is most worrisome about TWWS are the following things.
- People stay members of (a) forum(s) they despise merely to try to cause disruption in sub-forums, find entertainment “material” (other people’s lives) to bring back to their lair, or find things to be pissed about.
- People inform others about when they are being discussed. They are then directly or indirectly invited to TWWS. Sometimes this is done under the guise of compassion, and with a link provided. It would be mean enough if they kept their negative thoughts only to themselves in their forum (you have to be a member and log in to read), but to then purposely try to hurt others or engage them in being shredded by a large group of mean-spirited trolls is totally different.
- Obsession and amusement. They would sometimes have 50 page threads all dedicated to how much they hated one particular user. Their comments would be full of speculation, lies, gossip, and some of the nastiest things human beings could ever say about other human beings (especially those they’d never met). They often “break out popcorn” to enjoy disputes or entertaining lives at the expense of their victims. They will follow a person’s every move just to report back, and will try to locate them in other internet places in order to track the “adventures”. They will go on to remember this individual for years after they started in on them, having a whole timeline as one might recall a favorite television series. A lot of times their opinions and recollections are mish-mashed from several people they lump in together who must have seemed similar to them.
- They do not extend the same courtesy to others that they would like for themselves. They don’t want people to be judgy towards them, yet they feel free to judge others. They want a forum where they can have a home to snark on natural parenting, call those forums oppressive in their attitudes and moderation, but they aren’t willing to let natural parenting folks have a safe place for forum– free of their judgments and mind games (which skillfully make it past moderation, plenty).
- The worst: interference in personal lives. Examples? Women use internet forums looking for help with a situation. Maybe they are having money or relationship troubles. The trolls get close to them at whatever forum they find them. The women are obviously already desperate to even be posting on an internet forum asking for advice from strangers. The trolls send private messages offering to help somehow (“I’ll get you a bus ticket to come stay near me for a while, and get away from that abusive deadbeat. There’s a job waiting for you here.“, etc.). As soon as the victim gives up ANY identifying info (address, full name, kids names, significant other and friends names, personal facebook address, etc.), things take a dark turn. Women get CPS at their door. Sometimes children are removed from them, even if temporarily. Women spend the night in jail from trumped up “concerns”. Others have their small businesses tampered with. Some have had to close due to trolls successfully scaring off all their customers and ruining their reputation. Phony bad reviews are left for people. The list goes on.
The harassment goes well beyond a single forum and begins to follow the victim, whether just on the internet or in real life.
The trolls will have many aliases, sometimes even within the same forum, just to play these games. These come in handy when pretending to be different people or in case of being banned from a forum (which is almost inevitable).
You may say that people with common sense who are careful can never be truly hurt by the trolls. It is fair to say that common sense goes a long way in protection. However, if they take a personal interest in you, they sometimes go to great lengths to keep affecting your life in whatever way they can manage. Despising people also comes quite easily to them. You’re a game and they’re bored. They’re also great “concern trolls”, acting like they care about your issues, your life, your children, and this justifying their interference. When they can be heartlessly cruel in one moment and switch it to pretending to want to help in the next, and when their whole forum was based off of and continues to specialize in hate, the act falls flat.
Some members of TWWS will tell you how great they are. They have helped each other through tragedy. They have helped each other have nice holidays. They have met up in person. They have sent presents. They have braided each other’s hair. Whatever. Everyone has good in them somewhere, and if you’re fortunate enough to see their good side, great for you. Someone else out there was less lucky. Their good does not at all dismiss the very painful negative impact they are having on the world (especially when the good is so selective, and their hate so easy and merciless). You could be the pregnant mom crying at home at the shock of “meeting” them, or the businesswoman closing up shop for good, or the woman finding herself answering authorities while her children sit in a holding room. It’s all wrong and decent people don’t do that to each other. End of story.
They like to say that they aren’t really trolls. The name references something else, and they’re just an innocent forum of smart, sassy women. Right. Maybe there are better ways to feel more happy about your own unsatisfying lives than attacking other women you encounter on the internet. HTH.
Tags: Amy Tuteur, an assumed identity, augustgirl, captainobvious, charlotte cohen, crazybitch, Dr. Amy, elizabethe, evile, facecheeks, ithappens, juniper70, jupiter1, kathy123, kathymuggle, kelly1101, maia sayet, mama tao, mdc, mom2sparklies, mothering.com, mrs. crabitus, peony, petronella, popsecret, princesskes, revvie, sara vanlooy, savithny, savloah, specialsnowflake, trollin, trolls with wooden spoons, twws, veronica nichols, vonnegut, whattoexpect, wildwomyn, zilch
Sara Savel: Troll Genealogist and Super Sleuth
Leave a Comment
According to the anonymous trolls like Candace Rice who’ve been hounding us left and right, Sara Savel is responsible for finding out as much about The Skeptical Mother as possible. Once they had her name from another source (thought to be January Harshe, aka Birth Without Fear), Sara was able to use that info to find out even more, including legal matters, details on her husband, address information, and even the woman’s family tree.
But why would someone want or need that info? For what purposes would this be used?
We already know that Candace is correct about Sara being smart and being a bit of a genealogist. We’ve seen her discuss this before. All the pieces began to fit. It just made sense. It turned out that Candace was an actually credible witness when it came to the trolls and their roles.
The chronology of how this came to pass goes something like this. Birth Without Fear grows increasingly threatened over The Skeptical Mother’s success as a Facebook birth page. As she is about to surpass BWF’s numbers, BWF followers go to TSM’s page to pick fights. In one fight, Ruthie Davis came to claim that TSM was copying January by celebrating gay parents and essentially made it clear that this was January’s turf. She also started publicly sharing TSM’s full, private name right then and there as an act of intimidation.
Once the name was *officially* out (as in, not being exchanged between a few trolls in private messages or groups), people were more open about sleuthing. Bambi Chapman claims she then found TSM on ISOTPB’s (Elizabeth’s) Pinterest. Of course she wouldn’t know who Sammy (TSM) was from just a friends list, so she came to Pinterest already knowing the name (from January) and looking for confirmation.
Next Sara was their girl, and Candace credits her for being the smart one in the Raptors. Sara took it upon herself to locate everything she could on Sammy, and then had private message conversations in which she suggested that Sammy should, if she wanted to be left alone, publicly denounce this project. Sara implied that her word alone would not sway all the people with sharing the info (some of which she herself had helped gather). That’s right… Sara, a respected Raptor, longtime Dr. Amy fan, member of Fed up and admin at Banned From Birth Pages’ word would not be enough to influence her friends and groupmates not to share personal info of an innocent person. Think about that for a moment.
Sammy refused to denounce the project but tried to speak words of peace to Sara. Then, trolls on Fed up with natural childbirth began publicly stating TSM’s full name and location repeatedly as they bashed her. This was all in retaliation for supposedly being involved in this project, which she was not.
What Came Next?
Sara then contacted us threatening legal action if we did not fix these already innocuous sentences (from You’re Destroying Birthy Land) : “I believe it was Sara Savel who told her she should publicly denounce us if she wanted to be left alone. I guess her word and our word weren’t good enough when we privately and publicly (respectively) clarified. You [Candace; the group] demanded public defamation by her [Sammy, TSM]. When you didn’t get what you were after, you tried to inflict harm. Sounds a little like terrorism, blackmail, extortion.”
In an effort to be accommodating, we then changed it to read: I believe it was Sara Savel who suggested she should publicly denounce us if she wanted to be left alone. [Remember, Sara is the same one who reportedly used her genealogical research skills to find everything she could on The Skeptical Mother’s personal life, including addresses and family trees.] I guess her word and our word weren’t good enough when we privately and publicly (respectively) clarified. You demanded public defamation by her. When you didn’t get what you were after, you tried to inflict harm. Sounds similar to terrorism, blackmail, extortion. Similar.
You want to take it to the law, Sara, spending your money and/or time over this paragraph? Here are the facts.
1. You enjoy genealogy.
2. You used skills you acquired in genealogy to gather information on an enemy– a woman your group had been bashing and hounding for years now.
3. Yourself and a group of women on the internet who take part in various bash sites were now all privy to the woman’s name and personal details.
4. You, by your own admission, stated that you asked TSM to denounce this project.
5. You then suggested to her that your belief in her innocence was insufficient to convince the group of women you associate with not to use the gathered info to retaliate against her.
6. Said group did publicly and privately use this info to retaliate against her, when she failed to comply with your suggestion.
7. You deemed this a “moral failure” on her part, showing that you had placed a judgment on her choice– the implication being the results are hers, and just.
8. You continue to associate with said group and said activities.
9. We have screenshots proving all these activities and continue to gather more.
Sara, I would ask this of you and all of your associates in the various birth-hate groups you participate in over the internet: are you prepared to commit perjury in a court of law?
Or, you could just let us continue to tell our sides of the story. It’s up to you.
Despite the obvious issues here with corruption and deceit, we don’t hate Sara. We hate what Sara does. Any other day and topic, maybe she would be a reasonable human being and a good friend. It’s getting swept up in internet birth wars and attempting to control environments and people that totally warps a person into something they’re not. Factor into that a history containing birth trauma, child loss, and forms of depression, and sometimes people get a little off balance. We have no doubt like many have suggested that Sara is smart. Maybe even the smartest Raptor. It doesn’t change what is right and what is wrong.
Sara, the time to stop pushing people you didn’t even have to know… is now.
Just let people be and leave us alone. Do us all a favor and unknow us. Stay off natural parenting and birth forums if it’s so upsetting to you and inspires so much hate in you. Focus on the things which matter most, such as love, and your family. If you want to pursue certain forms of legislation or better health care for women, let that path guide you instead. We wish you peace.
For a little more on Sara’s background and what brings her to the Birth Troll groups online, this may explain it.
Tags: Amy Tuteur, bambi chapman, banned from birth pages, birth without fear, candace rice, Dr. Amy, elizabeth, fed up with natural childbirth, isotpb, january harshe, mommyish, ruthie davis, sammy, sara savel, the raptors, the skeptical mother
Trolls Make Organized Efforts to Stomp Out “Woo”
Leave a Comment
Whenever something comes out in the birth or parenting world that is critical of medical mainstream practices, the trolls get together and attempt to squash it with brute force.
This time, they have taken on a book. They’ve done this before, but this time it’s The Business of Baby. The Business of Baby is receiving lots of attention in the natural parenting world. As such, Dr. Amy and her accomplices want to tear it apart. We can assume with confidence that none of them have read the book, but despise its intention. This is when they go to Amazon and leave phony book reviews for book subjects which they already and only find contentious.
The following post shows Alexis Coxon, Florence Brun Tirakayos, and Dr. Amy Tuteur leaving their reviews.
When this group of women decides they are against something, they rally all their troops. Then, when the person they’ve targeted asks for aid themselves (from a Facebook page), they get reamed in the reviews for doing that. Funny how these hate groups are allowed to stampede on Facebook to get results, but the author is not allowed to follow suit in her own defense. You will see plenty of other down-rated reviews that make a point to mention this, as if it was morally unacceptable for the author. They come off as tacky instead of making the author look tacky. Not to mention it is blatantly unfair and bully behavior.
Luckily author Jennifer Margulis has a major publisher and lots of good publicity. Her negative reviews hardly put a dent in the positive, due to prominent exposure. Independent authors (and others, such as small business owners) may find they are less fortunate.
If you are perusing natural childbirth or parenting books on Amazon and you happen to see lots of scathing reviews, take it with a grain of salt. They could be coming from internet trolls.
As alluded above, this type of prejudice doesn’t stop with books. Amazon makes it more obvious since they have open reviews (with the exclusivity and class of a highway restroom), but we have heard accounts of women being forced to close their small businesses due to troll interference. If they decide they don’t like you or your beliefs, they don’t adhere to a live and let live policy. They do not leave people alone. They want to destroy you. Their only point of view is shame on you for writing this book, shame on you for responding to misleading critiques, and unless you agree with me, shame on you for existing. That’s why these are hate groups.
This is why we think you should know their names and backgrounds.
Anonymous Source Names Cindy DiFrancisco As Harasser
2 Comments
An excerpt from a message from Anonymous:
I’m fairly certain that the Candace Rice & Cindy Jones person mentioned on TVL is Cindy DiFrancisco, *especially* if her IP showed Ohio. The writing style (“u” “babe” “cray cray”), the way she references Lindsay, Aleah, etc as being “the best raptors”, and her willingness to engage in conversation fairly civilly all point to Cindy.
Ok. That makes sense. Thank you.
A note from Elizabeth to Anonymous: Thanks for taking time to reach out and provide this info. This seems possible, and your perspective is valuable to us. I appreciate your help. I didn’t respond directly to your message for certain reasons, but feel free to e-mail me anytime at info@theperfectbirth.com and I will be likely to write back. 🙂 I hope you’re well too and enjoy the weekend.
Now back to the subject. Here are some things which could support that idea.
Remember how in our Master Troll List we mention that Cindy DiFrancisco was once thought to be a Heidi alias? It was even referenced that Cindy “used to be up Heidi’s ass” but is now up the asses of the main Raptors. This supports the odd use of “birthshit” everywhere as an insult (which copies Heidi).
We previously suspected Bambi.
Then there is how Candace Rice and her mock page are always defending Stillbirthday and Birth Without Fear. (In this shot, she also accuses ISOTPB of imagined meanness to The Skeptical Mother, which is untrue.)
If you didn’t know, Cindy DiFrancisco (among many other trolls on our list) is on the Prayer Team for Stillbirthday.
Sara R., possibly Sara Rose White.
Here she is trying to keep all the trolls interested in this project.
Efforts against us maintain that we are talking about women who’ve “done nothing wrong”. Dr. Amy trolls are fairly notorious for being malicious all over the internet, however. That’s a strong case of denial! Here “Candace” offers her support to “nice lady” January BWF.
Now it gets weird. Could Cindy DiFrancisco also be “Jennifer Ralph”? We thought this was Heidi. If not, just how far “up Heidi’s ass” is Cindy really?
Fed Uppers think “Jennifer Ralph” has serious psychiatric issues. (We agree!)
It’s funny you should mention that.
Scary.
Tags: aleah steiner, Amy Tuteur, anj fabian, bambi chapman, banned from birth pages, birth without fear, candace rice, cindy difrancisco, cindy jones, desiree scorcia halter, Dr. Amy, fed up with natural childbirth, heidi faith, ilise newman, jennifer ralph, kim blumburg, kory oransky, lindsay roth, lisa miller, liz paparella, michelle, myrisa spencer, naima van swol, patricia la brie, raptors, sara rose white, stillbirthday, tara dukaczewicz, teresia suzanne, the skeptical mother
Who’s the Real Sanctimommy?
Leave a Comment
ORIGIN
“Sanctimommy”– a term coined within the Dr. Amy camp. A combination of sanctimonious and mother, they use it to vent their frustrations about anyone who makes them feel inadequate.
APPLICATION
They apply it generously to anyone who openly espouses natural parenting methods.
Have homebirths, umedicated births, midwife births, or freebirths? Sanctimommy.
Cloth diaper?
Sanctimommy.
Don’t spank your kids?
Sanctimommy.
Don’t believe in circumcision because you can’t stand the thought of cutting your newborn baby unnecessarily?
Sanctimommy.
Baby wear? Co-sleep?
Sanctimommy.
Exclusively breastfeed?
Sanctimommy.
The list goes on. All you have to do is be open about it. You don’t have to be preaching or condescending, but it will be construed as such. Basically, the term gets thrown around because these people feel you’re trying to make others feel guilty for not being like you. Your mere existence and openness about the natural parenting lifestyle would qualify you for the title “sanctimommy”.
They may as well be shouting, “Do you think you’re better than me?!”
PRIDE
Look, every mother has trials, tribulations, hurdles, and achievements. We’re all just doing the best we can. For one mother, breastfeeding past one year feels like an achievement. To Dr. Amy’s group, this may make her a “sanctimommy” (if she is proud of it and tries to tell her story to others, especially if she claims its betterness or benefits). A member of Dr. Amy’s group, however, might be proud that they were able to finally get a good night’s sleep alone with the baby in the crib. Each mother had her own reasons for doing something, and it was a goal which to her was worthwhile. Each mother struggled and was proud of the achievement/outcome. It’s natural. Even if you don’t understand or agree with the choice, we have to admit that we all do what we as individuals think is best… otherwise they wouldn’t be our choices. Seriously, when was the last time you as a mother chose something because you felt it was mediocre? So, if a mother is feeling proud over a success with a choice she made that differs from your own lifestyle, does that make them a sanctimommy to discuss and say so?
PREJUDICE
Which brings us to the Dr. Amy group again. They selectively label “sanctimommies” to mothers trying very hard to do what they feel is right with a natural or attachment parenting slant. Other parenting methods that could make others inadvertently feel guilty or challenged are not attacked. Yet, the “sanctimommy” labelers take part in storming the internet with their idea of “betterness” in parenting, in everything from vaccinating to birth to breastfeeding, and more. They join pages they ideologically disagree with solely to inject their own personal feelings on what is best, safest, smartest. And they expect you to accept it as fact, or clearly you don’t care about your children. Well if this isn’t just the pot calling the kettle black?
Yes, Dr. Amy herself is a Queen Sanctimommy. Other things Dr. Amy is a sanctimommy about: single mothers, same sex couples, and even women leaving their husbands over abuse. Amy believes that none of these folks are doing what is best for kids. Dr. Amy believes that you are a better parent if you are married to someone of the opposite sex only, even if they beat you. And she believes they have to be the biological parents. She thinks any other kind of parent is being selfish, that the children need both biological parents in the same household as them. Nevermind the dysfunction this implies, it’s downright prejudiced and well… sanctimonious. It reeks of a person who was either in an abusive household where she saw people stick it out despite it, resented someone for leaving an abusive home for her own selfish reasons, or is currently part of an abusive or loveless home… and tries desperately to justify it by proclaiming it “better”.
Not that we could ever accuse sanctimommy Dr. Amy of being against dysfunction. After all, she does endorse/support the organization Stillbirthday. Clearly, mental health and stability takes not just a back seat, but a back bumper, to her agendas and preferences she attempts to impose on society.
ILLUSTRATION
But even Dr. Amy is a proud mom. Just like the well-meaning first timer feeding her kids all organic baby food (and succeeding! that sanctimonious bitch! just what is she trying to prove, anyway?), Amy is not immune to the call of the mother to work at something and accomplish something to be proud of (and then, share it with the world).
She showed this to her group Fed Up with Natural Childbirth.
Cute kids. Now, this is something Amy worked at and achieved. It has absolutely nothing to do with childbirth, which you’ll note is the very subject of the group she fronts, where everyone constantly whines about sanctimommies. She shared this solely as a means to brag about something she achieved. For a human being, this is understandable.
Now, someone could have called her a sanctimommy. People could have got offended at the time she committed to the task. What, does she think she is a better mother because she took so much time to make these costumes? People could have got offended at the amount of resources and money she used. What, does she think those things made her better than me? Big deal you used all that thread… what do you want, a gold medal? People could have gotten offended at her creativity and execution. What, does she think that just because she has this skill, that she’s a better mother? Gee, it really sounds like you’re trying to make us feel bad about ourselves, Dr. Amy.
Nope. No one did that.
In fact, no one even pointed out the awkwardness of making four differently-aged siblings all dress as Teletubbies for Halloween, just to show off Mommy’s talents. I’m looking at these cute kids, smiles on their faces, and thinking how in the hell she convinced these older boys to dress in these cutesie matchy-matchy costumes that are pop icons for toddlers. I was a pre-teen and a teen in the 1990s. I know this wasn’t hip, cool, or desired. I have to wonder if a lot of tears were involved. Coercion? Hopefully money, and hopefully not including going out in public beyond the front steps. I also lived in the Northeast (where Amy and her family are from), so I know how cruel and merciless your peers can be in that region specifically. At a very young, elementary age, I was expected to be a lot more mature than my childlike nature asked of me. Kids are not kind. In fact, some of those kids from my childhood probably grew up to be trolls…
Normally I wouldn’t bring the kids into this, but this paints an excellent picture to illustrate the main point: Who is the real sanctimommy?
She’s not a sanctimommy for making unfortunate costumes for older kids to wear on a major holiday (Ralphie and A Christmas Story, anyone?), but for thinking her way is always better while being selfish and putting her own ego first, all the while pointing fingers at others and thus being a hypocrite. For her harsh judgment and unforgiving nature, and her inner fragility obviously seeking validation, she is the Sanctimommy she condemns. And her fan base is just the same.
The former child in me looks at this photo and cries out “Noooo!” in recognition that this would have been ultra embarrassing. The mother in me today gets angry that someone who spends her time accusing everyone of being “sanctimommies” was so proud of her own self as a mother as to probably put her own wishes and needs above those of her own children, and their own psychological happiness and well-being.
She had to show off what she could do! She was a super mom. She was a proud mom, proud of a mommy thing she worked at and did. Her kids may have been mortified by it in the process, but she was good at something.
All mothers– from the young hippie to Dr. Amy– want to be validated, want to feel important, want to know our efforts are not in vain. We’re all trying our best to do something good, something right. If someone else’s efforts make you feel bad about your own, call them a “sanctimommy”. It will be more telling about your own issues than the person you are labeling.
What I wish the trolls could see is this: it’s unfair to accuse others of something that we are all guilty of– trying, achieving, celebrating. It doesn’t have to matter to you if it matters to the next woman. And to slap an ugly label on it? Bullying.
By the way, take another look at this picture and remind yourself that in the 1990s, this is what Dr. Amy was doing instead of practicing medicine.
Tags: Amy Tuteur, Dr. Amy, fed up with natural childbirth, raptors, stillbirthday, the skeptical mother, the skeptical ob
Bambi: How Amy Creates Pawns
Leave a Comment
Bambi Chapman works closely with Stillbirthday, the organization geared towards grieving parents of loss.
Bambi is a simple girl, a little bit country if you listen to her. She isn’t the smartest girl in the world. She started her family young and it grew pretty big, pretty quick. She started on the natural birth path with midwives and the like, but not because she was brainwashed and had all the faith and information and support to back her up. She may have done it for a combination of reasons, involving finances, availability, and more. One thing I can safely say was not the case with impressionable young Bambi is that she was indoctrinated into any cultish belief system. From what I can understand, she was merely going with the flow. It’s something lots of parents do, especially first timers. The first few births went well enough.
Then she gave birth to a girl accidentally unassisted. Midwife was late. Baby was considered preterm. Baby seemed a bit off, but midwife and paramedics gave the okay. Kangaroo care may have been recommended. Bambi lay her baby down and went to shower. When she came back, baby was gone.
A heartbreaking tragedy, but take the young and hurting and impressionable mind of this mother and add a coroner who dictates “homebirth” as a cause of death, and you have the potential to create a monster. She would go on to resist apologies and communication with her former friend and midwife, to blasting all over the internet about the “baby killers”, including any other midwife whose name would cross her path.
Bambi (Stillbirthday, Dr. Amy troll) takes everything personally, including “jerkwads” who try to calm her down and make her realize she is attacking people who’ve done nothing wrong.
Her indiscriminate lashing out at others who are either natural/homebirth minded, midwives, or even other loss moms has earned her a nasty reputation as one of the top trolls to avoid. But I am getting ahead. Let’s keep this in chronological order.
Enter “Dr.” Amy, a retired doctor who likes to stir up rhetoric on the internet defaming homebirth. She sees this young, grieving, hurting, impressionable mother, and only 2 months after her loss, asks to use her story. The die had been cast. Not only did Amy want to use Bambi’s story (and thus a sense of importance and validation is provided), but offers Bambi a new way of seeing… there were people to blame, and Bambi just had to know the right ones (according to the good doctor). Amy came to Bambi, just as she comes to many mothers trying to use their stories for her own gain. Some accept as Bambi has and become part of the “Dr. Amy trolls”, via Hurt by Homebirth and Fed Up with Natural Childbirth. Some refuse, and Amy goes on to blog about them anyway. Some have since asked for their stories to be removed, like Elizabeth Brown had, after seeing Amy’s relentless blame-the-mother mentality in her loss attacks. Amy has not honored any such requests. In Bambi’s case, it would not be long before she was quite fond of Dr. Amy and all the “medical truths” she represented. Bambi isn’t much of a reader, learner, or comprehend-er otherwise, so taking Amy’s word for it was all she had to do. For her blind faith and tireless attacking of others, she quickly became a sort of leader amongst the Raptors (even before they were named as such).
I had the displeasure of first meeting her when I was on a forum discussing how to heal from birth trauma. I discussed my own experiences and she sent me a private message telling me how offensive me discussing my ideas on how I was going to heal (and how others might, too) was. Because she had a personal distaste for my healing, she thought I should go away. In the process, she and her other troll friends were disrupting and disturbing my own healing. I was a very pregnant woman coming to terms with things and they were in fact causing me a lot of hurt and pain right before I was about to give birth. The timing was critical. And, these activities have been ongoing all over the internet, so I am not the only one who has been touched by these individuals and their activities on a personal level. Yet, Bambi is now in a position to be helping others heal.
To this day Bambi is still connected with Amy and Amy’s groups and sites, and still seems to view her loss through these same distorted lenses, seemingly unaware that she is not respected by Amy… she is just another pawn, albeit maybe one of the strongest ones (due to her persistent rage), in Dr. Amy’s game.
Just like Lisa Miller, Bambi has been put on a tight leash by Stillbirthday founder Heidi, to be a good girl. She was ordered to turn her blog into a normal parenting blog instead of a birth bashing one. She complied. Her thinly veiled disdain has not been concealed, however. In one fight with In Search of the Perfect Birth online, she admitted her desire to return to those old ways.
Naturally, BWF “liked” Bambi’s comment.
Even when she is not piping up with comments, she offers supportive “likes” to her friends who comment on natural birth pages, like the one seen here on The Skeptical Mother. 
Aleah: So Feminist it’s Misogynist
1 Comment
This was first published by ISOTPB.
QUESTION: Is natural childbirth
sexist? Is medical childbirth sexist?
It depends. Before labeling, you really have to be fair and consider the source.
Michel Odent has been called or implied sexist by a certain infamous Dr. and anti-NCBers for providing info to empower women through realizing how to give birth naturally and the beauty of it.
The logic seems to be that he’s old, he’s a man, and anyone who would deny women of pain relief (medication) in childbirth is a sexist who believes women should suffer in childbirth. They also take issue that these philosophies “remove choices”, but I argue that a) so do anti NCBers, in trying to more strictly regulate birth options, and b) we are for INFORMED choices, but we disagree that all women’s choices are actually well-informed.
That’s not what natural birth is about, though. It’s not about being cruel and making women suffer. It’s not about removing WELL-informed choices. It’s about providing right info, and putting power that is life-altering back into the hands of women. If women knew just how powerful they were, this would actually be a threat to the patriarchy… !
So, no, I promise you, none of us thinks women should be in pain and suffering for their birth. In fact, I’ll be the first one to tell you to be kind to yourself. If the pain is unbearable to you, take the meds. And don’t be hard on yourself for making that choice. I don’t want to see women suffer, and I doubt that’s Odent’s intention, either.
So what IS this Odent physiology stuff about? It’s about the fact that women don’t automatically suffer just because the paternal obstetric model doesn’t relieve the poor, weak woman with pain meds. That’s right… not every woman is some poor, suffering child whose pain can only be relieved by some white (-coated) knight, who mercifully swoops in to bestow his paternal hit of drugs.
I have done it both ways (drugged and not). I have received pain meds and been ever so grateful. I have also wished I would lose consciousness and had an excruciating “natural” birth. And, I have been liberated from the cycle by owning my birth and surrendering to it– naturally and physiologically. Guess which birth was best?
I’m going to show you some things and then I want you to decide what is truly sexist: Giving power and information TO, or degrading and expecting less FROM? These are merely examples of the rhetoric, and the personalities behind the rhetoric. Some opinions and values are shared by their friends, and some are not.
This is a point about what IS sexism and what IS real feminism; when people cry “sexist”, we need to consider the source.
[Gone: pic of her and baby, she points to baby, baby has shirt declaring mom’s hotness.]
[Values include: being a MILF (and making sure everyone knows you are)…]
Take away: Even Dr. Amy puts the smack down on rampant sexism coming from Aleah and friends.
These are just some examples of the differences between “sexism” in natural childbirth and sexism in anti-NCB. I know that some believers in natural birth happen to be sexist or perhaps even come from a women-as-subservient place, but you are certainly not finding any of that with me or Odent. We are champions of women, and it’s wrong to falsely paint these principles of biology as misogynist. I am a progressive, believe in freedom and equality, and have been called a feminist since I was a child– and I am proud of that. I believe women are amazing goddesses and deserve the utmost respect. I believe in a return to our innate maternal wisdom.
Okay, so Odent is a sexist for playing into woman’s birth goddess “fantasies” and putting women on a pedestal to encourage them to take back birth from the medical model, but people like those shown above are not sexist? Odent may have a penis, that is true. A man can be a feminist just as sure as a woman can be a chauvinist, however.
I’m not trying to be mean, honest. I’m just trying to say that…
It’s hard for me to really take seriously the opinions of people crying “misogynist” who think the standard of beauty is being a dyed blonde, breast job having, diamond wearing MILF nurse; who think “pushing a baby out your vag” is no big deal and even something to ridicule, and constantly calls people in a condescending tone “honey”, “love”, “sweetie”– when she isn’t busy using her favorite insult, “twat“. You dig what I’m saying?
Why should anyone take seriously opinions on Dr. Odent coming from these folks? All things considered, if these are your attitudes in life, your idea of what is “misogynist” falls a little flat with me. These to me are not true feminists and not actual advocates for women. These are the biggest misogynists of all. I certainly won’t listen to what SHE thinks WOMEN aren’t capable of. I wouldn’t even trust the limitations she puts on herself.
It’s worth noting that these are the same people who call my friend an “attention whore” for talking about her rape to explain her birth views, and bring it up as another source of ridicule.
These aren’t healthy, credible sources. Before you call misogyny, you must consider the source.
Okay, so, what is really sexist? The natural childbirth advocate who tells women how they can have the best birth for their self and their child without trauma? Or the anti-NCBer who tells women that they aren’t special and should shut up?
You decide. Who’s the sexist and who’s the feminist?
Are you for women, or are you against them? Do you believe in them, or do you think they are ridiculous?
You have to love yourself before you can love someone else. It seems we have an epidemic in our culture… a serious lack of understanding of our true worth.
If we’re going to give birth back to women, we need to start patching that up. You are not a pair of tits and a hair color. One day you’ll be old, or fat, or ugly. For now you are a youthful woman, perhaps fertile, certainly glorious and beautiful no matter who convinced you that you’re not. Your real power and beauty is something ageless and within. What’s it going to take to undo all this damage and convince our insecure women of this? Can it be undone?
Sorry, I wanted to keep this short, but I couldn’t leave you without ending it on this note.
Tags: aleah lane steiner, aleah steiner, Amy Tuteur, Dr. Amy, lindsay marie, lindsay roth, made to birth, Michel Odent, monica barnes, sammy, the skeptical mother
Marlo: Amy Puppet Against Science
Leave a Comment
This post was previously published by ISOTPB.
My previous post drew controversy that I would dare contradict Dr. Amy in insisting that Dr. Odent was right about birth physiology, namely that mammalian birth involved the BONDING hormone Oxytocin, which is in fact different from the synthetic variety, best known as Pitocin. The issue was basically that Odent was supposedly an out-of-touch misogynist for tricking women into believing they were birthing goddesses when they really aren’t, guilting women into undergoing the pain of childbirth. And oh, btw, Oxytocin doesn’t actually bond people and Pitocin does exactly the same things for the body. Right.
Enter “troll” (not my label) Marlo. She is vocal in the anti-NCB community and feels that pain-free childbirth is a lie, Michel Odent is an unapologetic sexist and not a man of science nor a respected doctor. We did a back and forth in comments in my previous post, and she had this to say:
“Find me some women OBGYNs who are down with it & have them guest post.”
Ask and ye shall receive… I may not have a guest post from Dr. Buckley (yet?!), but I do have her response to the topic, as it is easily available. Enjoy!
Sarah J Buckley is a trained GP/family physician with qualifications in GP-obstetrics and family planning. Dr Buckley has presented at numerous conferences in Australia, New Zealand, the US and Canada, lecturing to midwives, nurses, physicians, obstetricians, doulas, and childbirth educators…
And of course, our man Odent has a fabulous endorsement of the respected Doctor:
“Sarah Buckley is precious, because she is bilingual. She can speak the language of a mother who gave birth to her four children at home. She can also speak like a medical doctor. By intermingling the language of the heart and the scientific language she is driving the history of childbirth towards a radical and inspiring new direction.”
Michel Odent MD, author and natural birth pioneer
Already we have TWO respected doctors who believe natural birth, oxytocin, and mammalian physiology are not just myths. Odent was discredited for his age, for his beliefs, and even for having a penis (“men will never understand“, Marlo holds). He was accused of being a general surgeon, and not an OB, even though Odent did his initial training in general surgery and was in charge of the surgical unit and the maternity unit at the Pithiviers state hospital (1962–1985).
Now, Dr. Buckley is a woman, has had home births, and is qualified in the field of obstetrics. Let’s hear more of what Dr. Buckley has to say:
Perhaps the best-known birth hormone is oxytocin, the hormone of love, which is secreted during sexual activity, male and female orgasm, birth, and breastfeeding. Oxytocin engenders feelings of love and altruism; as Michel Odent says, “Whatever the facet of Love we consider, oxytocin is involved.”(1)For the baby also, birth is an exciting and stressful event, reflected in high CA levels (27). These assist the baby during birth by protecting against the effects of hypoxia (lack of oxygen) and subsequent acidosis.
UNDISTURBED BIRTH
Undisturbed birth is exceedingly rare in our culture, even in birth centers and home births.
Two factors that disturb birth in all mammals are firstly being in an unfamiliar place and secondly the presence of an observer. Feelings of safety and privacy thus seem to be fundamental. Yet the entire system of Western obstetrics is devoted to observing pregnant and birthing women, by both people and machines, and when birth isn’t going smoothly, obstetricians respond with yet more intense observation. It is indeed amazing that any woman can give birth under such conditions.
Synthetic oxytocin [AKA PITOCIN] administered in labor does not act like the body’s own oxytocin. First, syntocinon-induced contractions are different from natural contractions, and these differences can cause a reduced blood flow to the baby. For example, waves can occur almost on top of each other when too high a dose of synthetic oxytocin is given, and it also causes the resting tone of the uterus to increase (33).
Second, oxytocin, synthetic or not, cannot cross from the body to the brain through the blood-brain barrier. This means that syntocinon, introduced into the body by injection or drip, does not act as the hormone of love. However, it does provide the hormonal system with negative feedback—that is, oxytocin receptors in the laboring woman’s body detect high levels of oxytocin and signal the brain to reduce production. We know that women with syntocinon infusions are at higher risk of bleeding after the birth, because their own oxytocin production has been shut down. But we do not know the psychological effects of giving birth without the peak levels of oxytocin that nature prescribes for all mammalian species.
For more from the very esteemed Dr. Buckley, read her article on Ecstatic Birth. Or is she just a misogynist idiot, too?
Tags: Amy Tuteur, Dr. Amy, fed up with natural childbirth, ignorance, Marlo Williams, Michel Odent, oxytocin, Sarah Buckley, science denial, the raptors
Lifting The Veil 